Graham Ovenden

Abstact for interview by Grace Lau on Oral History of British Photography

Recorded 2000-06-02 at British Library, London.

Part 1. Born 11 February 1943 in Hampshire. Graham Ovenden (GO) enjoyed an idyllic childhood, pleasant countryside and family environment in school. Just after the war, petrol rationing and a simple lifestyle. Listened to Dick Barton on radio. Father was an aeronautical engineer with an understanding of the mechanical. He had an awareness of art at the age of six, and was regarded as a child protege as he was building harpsichords and played the piano at the age of four and when twelve years of age, was painting Gainsborough style. GO: "Technical virtuosity can be a great asset but also destructive. Going forward, when I first went to art college I had to virtually unlearn everything I had already learnt, then realised after that everything you taught yourself was actually the most important." (reference to Elgar who was self-taught, very rare for classical musician to be self-taught). GO was very much a loner as a child, and is still like that. As a painter, it's a long and introvert process. "I'm only now catching up on photography which I did 30 years ago. I was obsessed by the presentation process and platinum printing; all these old techniques are becoming fashionable now. I did platinum printing at the age of twelve." GO did a paper run at age of 9. "My latest book of photographs were taken when I was 13; I was a country bumpkin looking at the great towers of the city of London; it's the reverse of the vision of an East End child looking out into the pastoral countryside. I can understand the poetry that moved Dickins; I had a fantasy, to walk with Dickens through the streets of London. " GO:"I'm a profound believer in William Blake and the 'state of Grace' which a child loses due to education" (ref. Blake who said: I do not believe in education because of its corruption.) His family were not rich, nor poor. His father taught him the rudiments of photography. GO believes that contemporary collections in great museums are filled with totally academic art; the 19th century movement was to overthrow the academies and from 1910 we had great freedom from academic restraint in terms of aesthetics. "Now we have too much freedom and spiritual constraint. You can't have art in total freedom." GO refers to Tate Modern; Peter Blake told him its a fascist building; a vast Nazi monument with fascist space, used in a masculine way. GO believes a cathedral's interior is female, has organic relationship with nature. Influence of American fundamentalism which is spiritually bankrupt and materialistic. CIA's dictate is to promote an arrogant culture, it's in their manifesto. Americanisation of British institutions. Last 50 yrs, GO tried to persuade literate people that photography can be a powerful visual organ in communication. He collected photography from early age; "the human condition intrigues me from a compassionate point of view rather than purely as an analytical observer." (ref. Karl Marx poetry). Believes that modernism is a product of the 19th century involving poetry and vision, but it is lost in the 20th century. Refers to Fox Talbot as a visually educated scientist with no talent in drawing. Daguerre, on the other hand, was an accomplished painter who didn't understand the nature of photography. Talbot's work looked forward to the whole process of photography. GO collected Gustave de Gray's work, an important photographer of 19th century but tainted by tradition of 300 years of painting. Photography is a metaphor for light, its essence is seductive and imaginative; doesn't need to emulate painting. Refers to Vermeer's classical perspective; 17th century Dutch painters used camera obscura lens to paint through. Vermeer was first artist who understood the poetry of the lens and how things intensified through the lens; the first to understand the natural vocabulary of photography. Photography gives an accurate quality of light. GO also collected gramaphone records when he started collecting photographs aged 13, bought his first SLR camera in 1962.

Part 2. Refers to British Museum's collection of photographs, scattered amongst their general catalogue where he discovered Hills & Adams' album of 100 calotypes in beautiful condition. Early photographs are fragile, onlyin terms of the condition they are kept. Now we use non-archival processes, paper with plastic bases. Full rag bromide paper is not around now; "technology marches on but in the act of advancement, actually acts as an impoverishing process." Refers to Lewis Hines as "the real McCoy who ended up impoverished, Americans neglect their own artists because Hines was an embarrassment to the Americans in his work on child slavery." In 1950, he was virtually valueless. But Americans did understand the importance of photography and their museum collections started in the 1930's. It didn't happen in Europe. Graham Ovenden (GO): "I believe if people did understand the potency of photography it would have been sucked up by commerce, and the art market. I don't mind that. One still equates the importance of artwork by how much money it fetches." (ref. example of Burne-Jones whose sketches fetched thousands after his death in 1910. But by 1930 they were unsaleable) Believes judgement of the art market is totally ephemeral, more fragile than the work of art. It is not curators of museums, but dealers who promote photography; immediately Sothebys and Christies started to take photography seriously in their auctions, everyone did the same (GO had advised both of them). Early dealers did great service to photography, such as Harry Lunn. He was part of the CIA network; all the photo dealers were CIA operatives. GO had taught them the history of 19th century photography. The photography market in England is very modest; 90% of antiquarian work goes to USA & Europe. GO collects arcane material; pornography is one of the greatest documents of social history (ref. recent TV programme 'My Secret Garden' and the British Museum's scandalised case of the destruction of the 1910 Ashby collection.) GO returns to his childhood: "I was a child protege" and went to co-ed Grammar school in Southampton in the early 1950's. He had a very good art teacher who directed him. All his photographs were secret to himself, "I never exhibit, never show to anyone. It was something very precious and important. My East End photos lay dormant for nearly 35 years, they only resurfaced the last 5-6 years. Half the images were never printed. They were so precious to me, I hardly dared print them." GO went to Southampton Art College; his tutor James Sellers taught him an immense amount about art and music. Literature and music were equally important, GO was reading Dickens by age 9-10. Photography was a process of wonder, magic and alchemy. "I wish I kept all my negs. I thought I had sorted out all the negs, unfortunately I burnt the wrong pile by accident when we moved to Cornwall in 1972. Lost lots of my first nude photos. Anything prior to 1964 is very rare." (ref. Constable who said you have to look at your work without self-love.) GO was totally emotionally committed to his photography, can remember moments of joy and ecstacy during his East End photography. Loss of his golden age which was important in terms of sensuality and sexuality, and of image-making as well. "Art which progresses must first look back." Renaissance is based on a return to the golden age, to Eden, to regaining one's state of true innocence which is not devoid of knowledge. Refers to the neurosis of child nudity in Anglo-Saxon culture. Confusing naivity and innocence as the same quality. Innocence is state of grace. Naivity is lack of knowledge and understanding. Art is about dark and light. Refers to Frances Bacon and Goya who is everybody's darkness but always gives you a perspective of human compassion. Horror is a sensuality which also activates the light in you. But Bacon onlyactivates negative qualities. Bacon is the Devil's court jester. GO went to the Royal College of Art in 1965, and met Peter Blake "one of the nicest human beings, my teacher and my friend." The RCA painting school was housed at the V&A Museum, perfect environment. Met John Bellamy, Ian Drury (rock fame). "After 1964, my nude photographs took over but one has to be respectful of the subject;" At the RCA he had models for the book 'State of Grace' which was not published here. Once he moved to London, the glamour of the East End faded.

Part 3. In 1964, Graham Ovenden (GO) took his last East End series of photographs at Waterloo Station, of a nude girl child. "Being a romantic and a raving perv at the same time, the girl child is pure and corrupt at the same time,) These are in "State of Grace". Refers to his major court case in the USA which was bigger than the Mapplethorpe case and came out before the Mapplethorpe case. Quotes "denial is as much corruption and perversion as excess"; both sides are polarities between normality. GO believes American society is based on denial, so it's basically a corrupt and perverted society. That applies to censorship in photography; it's either crass censorship or pornography with nothing in between, in America. But what happens in between is what we call 'art'. Refers to when a selection of his girl nudes in 'State of Grace' (published by Ophelia, printed in Hong Kong) was seized by American Customs. But he won the court case and it's now legally available in the States. It was actually published in Amsterdam but now Holland has gone from being the most liberal to the most draconian on child nudity. In liaison with the FBI, his publishers were raided in Amsterdam and 1,200 copies were seized and probably destroyed. The 30 drawings were taken by the American Customs. The FBI thought he was running a paedophile organisation and sent agents to the Tate Gallery (which has some GO artwork) to investigate. GO believes Pollock and Rothko were funded by the CIA in late 50's/60's. America decided they needed a major modern culture to be dominant in the world in opposition to Communism. They picked on a totally sexually neutral art which ties in with the American psyche of neurosis and vulnerability. So they picked on non-figurative art that cannot frighten; it being the perfect media to exploit as a major culture. Just like the Nazis. America is a fascist country. In Britain, obscenity laws are fudged. Child nudity is not banned, they use the word 'indecent'. The court works in emotive ways, but the media have been on his side. "The combination of sentimentality and neurosis is the most powerful weapon in the world." Up to 1886, the age of consent was thirteen. Then the puritan view (ref. Cromwell's destruction of cathedrals) and supreme works of art suddenly became pornography to be destroyed. Refers to censorship and America's religious fundamentalism. GO's new work with computers, making use of existing imagery which is too good to destroy but not quite sufficient. Deeply interested in images of the child nude which has now been 'imprisoned by society, behind bars, sexual and emotive imprisonment'. Because of this present repression of the soul America's next generation will be neurotic in 20 years time. "I never use the word erotic. Great works of Western erotic art also happens to be grat works of art" (ref. Sheba in the Louvre and Botticelli's spiritually sensual work.) Eroticism is part and parcel of art. Refers to Cezanne's 'Bathers' which is totally negative in terms of sexuality; it has all the aesthetics of art but the morality behind it is totally bankrupt; Cezanne didn't understand the female form. The nude is a great subject, both for darkness and for light, in both photography and in painting. Photography goes beyond what painting can do in terms of the 'human condition' (ref. Cameron). GO mentions his collection of 'Titanic' images; how a photo of the Titanic, although not a work of art,becomes an icon withall the potency and qualities of a work of art. Like the Belsen photographs, and those of Lewis Hines, are utterly horrifying, and takes on immense power; such is the quality of photography. Works of art can be actually created. Ref. his East End photos, they were intuitive, about mystery, anguish, reality. Photography can hold that instance.

Part 4. At the Royal College of Art, Graham Ovenden (GO) was befriended by Robert Melville who wrote about him and bought his works from 1966. Although given a one-man show at the RCA, this was banned by the Head of the RCA perhaps due to censorship on his nudes. So he rejected his diploma, but they persuaded him to accept it. In 1968 he said he would never enter an art college again. Censorship was creeping in. Previously at life drawing classes at the RCA, mothers brought in their daughters to model, a lovely experience. (ref. Sally Mann's family works). GO comments Sally Mann not honest with herself or the media. Ref. Channel 4 programme on puberty planned for Sally's contribution but she backed out due to 'moral reasons, and not wishing to be involved in the subject'. Another instance was when she visited Nicky Akehurst with her children and when Nicky showed some images, Sally hastened to take her children out to avoid them seeing. That is hypocrisy. Political correctness is a euphemism for fascism; a sin, iconoclasm. Any nude has a natural sexuality, as do older women of 80 or 90 who never lose their state of grace; a beautiful quality. GO's paintings of little girls, in a tender complicated way because they are tender and complex creatures. August Sander is his favourite 19th century photographer; his portraits are moving because of their modesty. Also Bill Brandt's "British at Home" documents (1936). GO felt compelled to take his East End pictures because, like his girl nudes, he had a moral drive and obligation to hold these transient beings as images for all time. GO: "I'm aware of the sensuality of these young girls, I'm moved by their angelic side as well as their demon side; they have a total wonder in them. As an artist I wish to explore that. Children are beautiful but I don't flatter them, I draw them with an edge." Late 60s/early 70s, GO was friendly with Bailey, Donovan, had visits from Waddington and Marlborough galleries, and a one-man show in 1971 at Piccadilly Gallery. In 1970, 'Alice' was his first show with Peter Blake. 1974, showed 'Aspects of Lolita' at Waddington. Makes references to English art, Impressionism, Tate Modern being self-conscious and "arty-farty". Comments on Damien Hirst's shark and chemist shop being like the Victorian's cabinet of curios. No natural vocabulary any longer. Over the past ten years, we are creating a museum of monsters, ugliness. Refers to Bacon's work being very powerful in a negative way, with no compassion, the product of a nihilistic mind.

Part 5. Graham Ovenden (GO) has love/hate relationship with Bacon. Bacon's anguish is eloquently stated, he is unique. He belongs to the cult of ugliness; there is no illuminosity in his art. Ref. Rembrandt: even the dark has to have great depth, he etches deep into the dark. Bacon's personal experience is a carnal act, and sexual art. Not an ecstatic art; his own interpretation, viciousness. GO comments on commercial, fashion photography. His collection of old music records. Believes fashion is the process of the loss of innocence: "because what is instant and shiny must become tawdry and tardy." He never takes advantage of the commercial market because photography is very personal. He is delighted when he sells his paintings. GO criticises the Royal Photographic Society as amateurish, trustees being "totally incompetent, and should be shot" because they have a great photographic collection but can't make it work. Bradford is "a wonderful idea that's been totally ballsed up by egoes". He is not so critical of the V&A whose main problem is lack of funds. National Portrait Gallery is a classic example of bad organisation and missed a major opportunity at the 100th anniversary of Lewis Carroll with their only average show. GO is equally critical of major American and European museums where tenth rate material have been given the exposure of great art. Germans and Japanese are more professional. The Serpentine lacks humanity and intellectual sophistication, promotes bad art. He believes that for the health of art, the best thing is to close every single art museum and gallery for the next twenty years, level it all down, then leave it to regenerate itself. Art will always continue. GO talks about digital and computer imagery, can be wonderful tool, ability to knit images together seamlessly. Explains how he can produce a pencil drawing which, when photographed, looks exactly like a photographic print. It relates to draughtsmanship, tonality and structure. Because of his eyesight, he doen't do it now, feels he can match Durer and Picacco's drawings in pure technical aptitude. It's a type of surrealism, a double-take. GO is now fluent in the computer graphic processes, uses his own imagery. Has about 700 prints. Working on set based on the angel and demon theme which is a combination of imagery and poems; not pornography but on the edge. Comments on his published books: "they are not just fragments of paper, they are works of art so treat them with that degree of respect and dignity and enjoy them". He loves looking at rude Victorian photos as much as French landscapes, loves looking at people, their foibles, their elegance; "I'm an enthusiaste for life." Art is like a pandoras box; lots of strange and dark things come out. GO comments on inkjet printing that has a pure and aesthetic quality whereas modern plastic printing papers are appalling. He uses 'Archers 300 gsm paper: "results are velvety and absolutely yummy." He moulds his artwork or photograph together with total integrity, so you ask am I looking at a drawing or a photograph? Its a combination of tradition and the most advanced form of printing. Photography and painting run parallel for him, his emotive response is always there, towards landscape or the girl child. "I don't look on myself as a photographic historian, I'm a total dilitante who loves photography and communicates to an audience. Photography is above all, about pictures not about words; its a visual communication." GO criticises "the whole structure built up by critics and art historians is total tautology; its repeating prejudices and opinions of the critics concerned." Refers to Brian Sewell who knows a certain aspect of art but is also a fool, a complete court jester who understands nothing of modernism. Talks about great period of modernism from 1915-1925; John Heartfield, Moholy-Nagy, Erte's fashion designs, Art Deco. Refers to Hirst and Tracy Emin phenomenon, 'dirty secrets', and retrogressive. "They think they are at the cutting edge of art but its the last thing they are because the cutting edge of art has never been with the Establishment." Refers to William Blake as a 'quaint old-fashioned eccentric, totally barmy as far as the art establishment is concerned.' GO thinks that immediately any major establishment claims to be avant-garde, view it with suspicion: "they make the mistake of being the circus show itself rather than the viewer of the circus." GO makes brief comments about Sally Mann, Tobias Golding, Hamish Fulton, Richard Long. Approves of 1930s American photography, e.g. Dorothea Lange. His income is from selling his paintings. Can't afford to buy photographs but swops pictures with other artists. Refers to political correctness making it impossible to photograph children at any level, clothed or unclothed; puts parents and child in great danger. A case of officialdom acting like the perverts rather than the protectors. History will show its a period when the Western world goes mad, one of the dark periods. The average person is neutral, influenced by tabloid mentality. Editors are like the Nazis; they are corruptors of children's minds. Quotes 'Aunt Glady's principle on art: never use the word "like" which is insulting. "I'd say this ennobles your soul." "So art has all the stratifications of nobility and spirituality, but it can also be a pet pig as well." (refers to a poem with music composed by Heinman (?) for his pet pig). END